Excellent summation of your work, and your “priors”. I have found your posts very valuable for talking with my Trump-y friends, as well as my strongly anti-Trump friends. As a “traditional conservative“ who never got the appeal of Trump, your work has helped me preserve every friend and family relationship. Admittedly, some not as strong as in the “before times”, but still ok. Thank you.
Thanks for sharing that, Jim. Even a few messages of support like this make me feel glad I've done the work I've done. I appreciate it more than you know.
I respect the admission because honestly, I was wondering how you could look at everything and not feel any emotion about anything. The way you write it felt like you’re a passive observer who somehow is beyond and above all of the emotions that everyone else has
I say that respectfully, and not as a dig, re the acknowledgment that you’re not some superhuman who has moved past all of this
As a 3x Trump voter (reluctantly at first), I appreciate your thoughtful and respectful approach. And I agree with your characterizations of the most "enthusiastic" Trump supporters, who are incurious bores (same with hard-left partisans). One of the most impressive and all-too-rare attempts to understand "both sides," in this case the Minneapolis-CBP/ICE "situation," was the following terrific post by Van Jones. I don't think I agree with Van Jones on anything politically, but this is the kind of examination desperately needed, and deserves to be rewarded. https://vanjones.substack.com/p/america-isnt-divided-on-ice-its-divided
As a sometime Trump supporter I just received an email telling me if I don't donate to the Trump Super PAC it means I'm an illegal alien- Should I donate??
I didn't know about contempt, but I learned that for me, hate is extended anger. I didn't feel hate for Trump, I do feel contempt. But feelings are feelings-it's a matter of how you handle them and how you act.
Yeah, hopefully it's obvious my goal is not to defend contempt, but to just build a more robust big-tent approach by recognizing the truth that many of us are angry and contemptuous and disgusted (for various reasons).
I wrestle with my approach to depolarization, which is that I don’t express my positions (and I try to let go of the desire to have them) or emotional reactions. So I like reading how you’re sharing your feelings (maybe as an experiment?)
I’d like to hear you say more about why you focus on contempt, instead of anger (which sounds to me like what’s most alive and salient for you)
i don't know if you read this piece of mine, but you might find it relevant: https://defusingamericananger.substack.com/p/how-taking-stances-and-criticizing. I agree it's not useful to get positions involved in this work, but I do think it's important to talk about approaches, and to separate those two areas. By and large, I don't think it's that useful to get one's views involved, and to focus on how we can disagree better, but I think it's also true that we need to give people a path to how they can be part of this work/cause even while being angry and highly judgmental (e.g., contemptuous) of various people/ideas. I think it would be a great thing if more people, with various different beliefs (including enthusiastic Trump supporters) were able to write a version of the piece I wrote; we would of course disagree on surface level things, but if we could agree on the meta-level aspect of how-we-engage/disagree, that would be a very important thing.
Strong take. The acknowledgement that depolarization work doesn't require emotional neutrality is underrated. I've seen too many people dismiss bridge-building efforts because the messenger has partisan leanings, when reallyits the methodology that matters. The bit about how our anger can coexist with efforts to reduce toxicity is huge because it gives people permission to engage without pretending to be above it all.
What you've laid out points to the faults in our two-party system as well as the importance of a commitment to one's values over fealty to one party. This is why I'm independent — because no single person or party has a monopoly on greed, corruption or ignorance, or even integrity, kindness and wisdom.
Zach, I think you are pushing against forces that are ridiculously strong in this moment. But I think after Trump's direct assault on public discourse comes to an end (someday), you will be recognized as a stern and steadfast, though fair, critic of the status quo.
I myself don't know how to deal with Trump, he is so radically undermining our institutions, domestically, internationally, and in the public sphere. You know that I strategize about bringing more sanity to our public sphere (including but not limited to social media), but now seems like a time to highlight how Trump _uniquely_ is poisoning things most citizens like and want, and reminding them why they like these institutions and global cooperation and etc.
Certainly, people of conscience can support bottom-up, grass roots efforts to retain a modicum of civility in our beloved country. But we should admit that this is not a "normal" debate.
yeah, I don't pretend to have any big answers, other than encourage people to see that, even in their anger/fear, they can try to engage in less polarizing ways (there is just a lot of low hanging fruit there IMO). I think a lot of people aren't even interested in trimming the bad, polarizing low hanging fruit of their behaviors, though; and that's not surprising, as conflict makes us not care about avoiding group-aimed insults. No easy answers; just as there were not any easy answers a decade ago.
"When you’re outraged by and contemptuous of your political opponents, you probably won’t be motivated" LOL
Being outraged and contemtuous toward political opponent seems to be the hallmark of the woke left. I detest some politicians, true, but I am an equal opportunity detester. I am new here, reading this, and I am thinking... sheesh.
Such a silly thing to say. Would your tribe dump you if you did not play the "I hate Trump" tune?
Sorry, I'm not sure what you're criticizing or asking. The nature of toxic conflict is that there is a lot of contempt all around us, in various forms. If that weren't true, we wouldn't be in a toxic polarization cycle.
Thank you for the valuable work you do in confronting the problem head-on, tirelessly. A break is well deserved, though you will be missed!
You state many people you're disappointed with. It's reasonable to me to feel a lot of disappointment. How could one not be disappointed if you are observing and thinking about what's happening in the world when so much verbal and physical fighting goes on? How could one not feel anger? These feelings are so automatic, we'd be foolish or arrogant to deny them.
I wonder about your characterization of partisans who don't want to engage and hear others as 'narcissistic.' It's not the word I would choose. When we refuse to listen to someone else, I think that's usually fear not self-love. You might say they're equivalent, that fear is a defense mechanism. But I think there's a difference. When I refuse to listen because I'm scared I am fighting for my existence. When I'm narcissistic I'm fighting for my gain. I think that distinction is important. People don't want to listen because they feel it's life or death. And I remind myself of this so that I don't take it personally or that the person is uniquely selfish. They are just under threat. And if 87% of Trump supporters believe their country is in crisis, that's a lot of people who feel they are fighting for their lives.
It's interesting that you say "I have choices about what to do with those feelings" but say you doubt free will. I'm curious how you hold both of those as true. Personally, I think choice is one of our greatest gifts. And even if there is no free will, the belief that there is is one of the greatest achievements of human beings and in fact the reason we can live in enormous society is the belief that people will follow agreed upon rules and norms and share values and make choices to uphold those values and be held responsible for those choices.
Thanks for thoughts. I def don't mean to say all such angry/judgmental responses are "narcissistic." I do believe that toxic conflict leads to many people behaving in more toxically narcissistic ways (e.g., refusing to try to see things from others' perspectives; associating broad aspects/traits of the "other side" with badness; instinctively not wanting to be like "them"; filtering everything through a lens of us-vs-them, etc.). Obviously, though, "narcissistic" is a subjective word, and there are no firm lines between what is not narcissistic and what is; which is arguably why that was a bad choice on my part, to use that word. But I used it to try to induce some self-examination by everyone; because in toxic conflict, we will often easily perceive the narcissism/toxicity on the "other side" but will often find it hard to see it in ourselves, or on "our side." If you want to hear more about this, search on this transcript for 'polarization' and see what me and my guest talked about: https://behavior-podcast.com/the-spectrum-of-narcissism-from-healthy-self-enhancement-to-toxic-narcissism-with-craig-malkin/
I use "choices" to mean the everyday perception we have of making choices, regardless of the underlying reality. No matter what, the perception of choices will remain. That is the "human level" of reality, no matter the underlying truth. And I am definitely not certain we don't have free will; free will is just something I find hard to imagine coming out of a purely physical system (and btw there are few things I'm certain of; maybe even just a couple lol). If you're curious to learn more about that, you might like this talk: https://behavior-podcast.com/whats-it-like-living-without-a-belief-in-free-will-with-physicist-daniel-whiteson/
Excellent summation of your work, and your “priors”. I have found your posts very valuable for talking with my Trump-y friends, as well as my strongly anti-Trump friends. As a “traditional conservative“ who never got the appeal of Trump, your work has helped me preserve every friend and family relationship. Admittedly, some not as strong as in the “before times”, but still ok. Thank you.
Thanks for sharing that, Jim. Even a few messages of support like this make me feel glad I've done the work I've done. I appreciate it more than you know.
I respect the admission because honestly, I was wondering how you could look at everything and not feel any emotion about anything. The way you write it felt like you’re a passive observer who somehow is beyond and above all of the emotions that everyone else has
I say that respectfully, and not as a dig, re the acknowledgment that you’re not some superhuman who has moved past all of this
As a 3x Trump voter (reluctantly at first), I appreciate your thoughtful and respectful approach. And I agree with your characterizations of the most "enthusiastic" Trump supporters, who are incurious bores (same with hard-left partisans). One of the most impressive and all-too-rare attempts to understand "both sides," in this case the Minneapolis-CBP/ICE "situation," was the following terrific post by Van Jones. I don't think I agree with Van Jones on anything politically, but this is the kind of examination desperately needed, and deserves to be rewarded. https://vanjones.substack.com/p/america-isnt-divided-on-ice-its-divided
As a sometime Trump supporter I just received an email telling me if I don't donate to the Trump Super PAC it means I'm an illegal alien- Should I donate??
Oh yeah I saw that one. I’m on those lists myself.
I didn't know about contempt, but I learned that for me, hate is extended anger. I didn't feel hate for Trump, I do feel contempt. But feelings are feelings-it's a matter of how you handle them and how you act.
Yeah, hopefully it's obvious my goal is not to defend contempt, but to just build a more robust big-tent approach by recognizing the truth that many of us are angry and contemptuous and disgusted (for various reasons).
I wrestle with my approach to depolarization, which is that I don’t express my positions (and I try to let go of the desire to have them) or emotional reactions. So I like reading how you’re sharing your feelings (maybe as an experiment?)
I’d like to hear you say more about why you focus on contempt, instead of anger (which sounds to me like what’s most alive and salient for you)
i don't know if you read this piece of mine, but you might find it relevant: https://defusingamericananger.substack.com/p/how-taking-stances-and-criticizing. I agree it's not useful to get positions involved in this work, but I do think it's important to talk about approaches, and to separate those two areas. By and large, I don't think it's that useful to get one's views involved, and to focus on how we can disagree better, but I think it's also true that we need to give people a path to how they can be part of this work/cause even while being angry and highly judgmental (e.g., contemptuous) of various people/ideas. I think it would be a great thing if more people, with various different beliefs (including enthusiastic Trump supporters) were able to write a version of the piece I wrote; we would of course disagree on surface level things, but if we could agree on the meta-level aspect of how-we-engage/disagree, that would be a very important thing.
Strong take. The acknowledgement that depolarization work doesn't require emotional neutrality is underrated. I've seen too many people dismiss bridge-building efforts because the messenger has partisan leanings, when reallyits the methodology that matters. The bit about how our anger can coexist with efforts to reduce toxicity is huge because it gives people permission to engage without pretending to be above it all.
It can take years of patient interaction to soothe someone’s anger.
This piece led to Kelly Johnston, a 3-time Trump voter, writing something similar about his own anger/contempt and how it ties into his views on polarization: https://kellyjohnston.substack.com/p/reducing-contempt-while-having-contempt
What you've laid out points to the faults in our two-party system as well as the importance of a commitment to one's values over fealty to one party. This is why I'm independent — because no single person or party has a monopoly on greed, corruption or ignorance, or even integrity, kindness and wisdom.
Zach, I think you are pushing against forces that are ridiculously strong in this moment. But I think after Trump's direct assault on public discourse comes to an end (someday), you will be recognized as a stern and steadfast, though fair, critic of the status quo.
I myself don't know how to deal with Trump, he is so radically undermining our institutions, domestically, internationally, and in the public sphere. You know that I strategize about bringing more sanity to our public sphere (including but not limited to social media), but now seems like a time to highlight how Trump _uniquely_ is poisoning things most citizens like and want, and reminding them why they like these institutions and global cooperation and etc.
Certainly, people of conscience can support bottom-up, grass roots efforts to retain a modicum of civility in our beloved country. But we should admit that this is not a "normal" debate.
yeah, I don't pretend to have any big answers, other than encourage people to see that, even in their anger/fear, they can try to engage in less polarizing ways (there is just a lot of low hanging fruit there IMO). I think a lot of people aren't even interested in trimming the bad, polarizing low hanging fruit of their behaviors, though; and that's not surprising, as conflict makes us not care about avoiding group-aimed insults. No easy answers; just as there were not any easy answers a decade ago.
"When you’re outraged by and contemptuous of your political opponents, you probably won’t be motivated" LOL
Being outraged and contemtuous toward political opponent seems to be the hallmark of the woke left. I detest some politicians, true, but I am an equal opportunity detester. I am new here, reading this, and I am thinking... sheesh.
Such a silly thing to say. Would your tribe dump you if you did not play the "I hate Trump" tune?
Sorry, I'm not sure what you're criticizing or asking. The nature of toxic conflict is that there is a lot of contempt all around us, in various forms. If that weren't true, we wouldn't be in a toxic polarization cycle.
You might enjoy this piece: https://defusingamericananger.substack.com/p/groups-in-conflict-are-different
Thank you for the valuable work you do in confronting the problem head-on, tirelessly. A break is well deserved, though you will be missed!
You state many people you're disappointed with. It's reasonable to me to feel a lot of disappointment. How could one not be disappointed if you are observing and thinking about what's happening in the world when so much verbal and physical fighting goes on? How could one not feel anger? These feelings are so automatic, we'd be foolish or arrogant to deny them.
I wonder about your characterization of partisans who don't want to engage and hear others as 'narcissistic.' It's not the word I would choose. When we refuse to listen to someone else, I think that's usually fear not self-love. You might say they're equivalent, that fear is a defense mechanism. But I think there's a difference. When I refuse to listen because I'm scared I am fighting for my existence. When I'm narcissistic I'm fighting for my gain. I think that distinction is important. People don't want to listen because they feel it's life or death. And I remind myself of this so that I don't take it personally or that the person is uniquely selfish. They are just under threat. And if 87% of Trump supporters believe their country is in crisis, that's a lot of people who feel they are fighting for their lives.
It's interesting that you say "I have choices about what to do with those feelings" but say you doubt free will. I'm curious how you hold both of those as true. Personally, I think choice is one of our greatest gifts. And even if there is no free will, the belief that there is is one of the greatest achievements of human beings and in fact the reason we can live in enormous society is the belief that people will follow agreed upon rules and norms and share values and make choices to uphold those values and be held responsible for those choices.
Thanks for thoughts. I def don't mean to say all such angry/judgmental responses are "narcissistic." I do believe that toxic conflict leads to many people behaving in more toxically narcissistic ways (e.g., refusing to try to see things from others' perspectives; associating broad aspects/traits of the "other side" with badness; instinctively not wanting to be like "them"; filtering everything through a lens of us-vs-them, etc.). Obviously, though, "narcissistic" is a subjective word, and there are no firm lines between what is not narcissistic and what is; which is arguably why that was a bad choice on my part, to use that word. But I used it to try to induce some self-examination by everyone; because in toxic conflict, we will often easily perceive the narcissism/toxicity on the "other side" but will often find it hard to see it in ourselves, or on "our side." If you want to hear more about this, search on this transcript for 'polarization' and see what me and my guest talked about: https://behavior-podcast.com/the-spectrum-of-narcissism-from-healthy-self-enhancement-to-toxic-narcissism-with-craig-malkin/
I use "choices" to mean the everyday perception we have of making choices, regardless of the underlying reality. No matter what, the perception of choices will remain. That is the "human level" of reality, no matter the underlying truth. And I am definitely not certain we don't have free will; free will is just something I find hard to imagine coming out of a purely physical system (and btw there are few things I'm certain of; maybe even just a couple lol). If you're curious to learn more about that, you might like this talk: https://behavior-podcast.com/whats-it-like-living-without-a-belief-in-free-will-with-physicist-daniel-whiteson/
All i know is when I was growing up there was a saying considered true - there’s an exception to everything. 🤷🏻♀️